"The Middle Path Log"
an Online Conversation about Body, Mind, and Spirit,
by Various Healing Practitioners and Students


INTRODUCTION
to this log of mailing list (email) exchanges


CONFIDENTIALITY:
          Due to the confidentiality rules applied to the mailing list from which this personal exchange was taken, and for ease of reading and following the exchange, I have 1) Replaced all Names with Initials. These initials are most likely are *not* that person's actual initials - with the exception of my own (BCP) - but still form a consistency for reference; 2) removed the internet style quoting (the little '>' marks) and added paragraph formatting; 3) removed the actual time of each message, but left the date.
TOPIC ORGANIZATION
          Please note that while I have attempted to provide breaks and header formatting to separate messages and (subject header) topics, and since the messages are place in order of date sent, they are NOT in order of subject header. Thus, if you wanted to follow the various messages of the same subject header, you would often have to skip through messages of other topics in the process of doing so.
ACCURACY OF STATEMENTS
          Please also note that I do not attest to the accuracy or medical application of any of the information, quotes, or claims posted here by the participants.
          Namaste'
                  Chris Pringer



In a message dated 96-02-06 ...

__MSH__:
        Dillard read the work of Donald E. Carr, who pointed out that the sense impressions of one-celled animals are not edited for the brain, as ours of course are. "This is philosophically interesting in a rather mournful way," Dillard quotes Carr, "since it means that only the simplest animals perceive the universe as it is."
        She also read about the early days of cataract surgery, when those blind from birth could suddenly "see." Many were simply overwhelmed and confused, unable to process the "patches of light" bombarding them- perhaps because the brain hadn't developed the structure to process the light and dark and color. Fascinating, yes. snip MSH

Dear __MSH__,

       The neat thing about even domesticated animals is that in applying healing energy to them, they don't have any belief systems that say, "Well, this MIGHT work if God loves me enough to grant a miracle" or some other judgment loaded projection onto the limitlessness of the universe. They might have some defense stuff going about people in general, but to the energy they just seem to respond based on how well the resources can be supplied through their system. Another factor - particularly for domestic pets, would be the individual and shared karmic related needs of the "owner" and the pet (or in the case of cats, the "owner" and the person <grin>.
    Some esoterists view animals as angelic in the sense that they choose to incarnate (inspite of the predicaments that humans often present them) for the sake of assisting humans to do their learning process. Quite a sacrifice.

       I envy the innocent and simple. But If I put them on the pedistal, I give myself a goal I cannot ever reach. Never in a billion lifetimes. Because I have knowledge and experience of what is not innocent and simple, though I may still be naïve in many ways. I comfort myself with the tenant that "Without temptation, no sainthood." No tests, no mastery. And I haven't passed all the tests, and I've flunked some pretty roundly, but I figure that's part of learning since we're all a little slow in a few areas.
          Those concepts give me hope to become a master one of these lives, if not this one. The former tells me I'd have to "erase" some things, and if we exist in a gestalt holographic universe then nothing is erased, it is re-perceived (if you will) or re-organized in one's perception of ALL THAT IS. And as regards what is illusion when and how and why, or my learning on it as regards all that, I'll just refer to an essay, "Detachment, or ...".

I seek a simplicity, but it is a distant heaven that I experience in small amounts at a time, yet with full awareness of the pain that is part of self-mastery.

Namaste' BCP


-----------------------

In a message dated 96-02-22, you write:

__JMC__ quoted: : ...............
        I think that there is a possible liberation from the psychological memory. The facts remain how they were, but their rememory does not anymore created a reaction of refusal or agreement.
.................

__BCP__: And that's where all the work is (and the basis of 99% of all psychological theory and practice). The rest you speak of is our goal, and we seem to be trying very often to avoid time and space and still accomplish that goal. Now THAT would be a fine trick to perform.

__BCP__



Subj: Re: Personal Rituals to Promote Meditation, Centering, Prayer, etc...

Date: 96-02-10

__LSL__,

The problem is not the nature of the vision, but the emotional attachment to its content.

Both good and bad visions live at the right moment of the perception, in the heart of the consciousness.

If you stay more attuned to the background in which the perceptions appear and disappear, there will be no more emphazise on the content.

The object-subject relationship with the perception vanishes.

And what remains is you, as the eternal witness.

So the main role of visions is to awake the understanding that you are not in the visions, but visions are in you.

It is like if you are looking at a TV film, being fully identified to the joy and suffering of the actor, then realizes suddenly that you are involved in a mental projection, and comes back to the silent observation which is you. At this moment, you are not any more in the film, but the film is living in you.

A natural distance emerges.

Your essential quietness appears out of the game, not affected by the process.


-----------------------

On Sat, 10 Feb 1996 08:46:13 -0500 __LSL__ wrote:

__JMC__ wrote about meditation in response to my (__LSL__) question.

 My current question concerns the role of visions in meditation. I would like to know your opinion on the statement I heard from a channelers who said that visions are _only_ mind chatter, and I will move through them.

__LSL__

-----------------------

Subj: Re: Personal Rituals to Promote Meditation, Centering, Prayer, etc...

Date: 96-02-10
From: __LSL__

__JMC__, again thank you for your response to my quiries about meditation. I do have some responses, shoud you choose to continue our dialogue.

You wrote first:
__JMC__ quoted: The problem is not the nature of the vision, but the emotional attachment to its content. What problem? My problem, your problem, the general problem? If the shoe fits, wear it?

You wrote next:
__JMC__ quoted: Both good and bad visions live at the right moment of the perception, in the heart of the consciousness. I find it difficult to 'go with your words' when you label visions good and bad. This doesn't fits with my POV.

You write:
__JMC__ quoted: So the main role of visions is to awake the understanding that you are not in the visions, but visions are in you. This sounds so much like what I have learned from Deepak Chopra that I just had to comment on it. I am not in the world, the world is in me. And my contribution, I am not a part of God, I am in Go

So __JMC__, I guess you are saying that visions do not necessarily fade from presence as one becomes more experienced at meditation, which was part of my question. BTW, what is your relationship to meditation? You have said little or nothing about what you do with it. This will help me decidehow I can use what you say, instead of blindly accepting your words as useful to me.

__LSL__


-----------------------

Subj: Re: Personal Rituals to Promote Meditation, Centering, Prayer, etc...


Date: 96-02-11

__JMC__:

__LSL__,

I usually try to speak only from my own experience.

It is sure that I spent many thousands hours to explore silently, to inquire and to discover.

You ask what I do with meditation.

I would rather said what meditation does with us.

It is not only a game with the words.

I don't think that we can meditate.

But we can see that we don't meditate, and this quality of seeing is meditation.

I don't see any necessity to accept what other people say. But we can listen to the inner echo, and feel if it is an echo of truth.

Please ask more precise questions and I will try to answer.

My answers sound sometimes impersonal, but it is because they come from a dimension which does not belong to the personality.

I feel only rarely the necessity to speak on a personal level. It is like speaking of old clothes.


-----------------------

On Sat, 10 Feb 1996 __LSL__ wrote:

__JMC__, again thank you for your response to my quiries about meditation. I do have some responses, shoud you choose to continue our dialogue.

 BTW, what is your relationship to meditation? You have said little or nothing about what you do with it. This will help me decidehow I can use what you say, instead of blindly accepting your words as useful to me.

__LSL__


-----------------------

Subj: Re: Personal Rituals to Promote Meditation, Centering, Prayer, etc...


Date: 96-02-11

__JMC__:

__LSL__,

I don't feel that I reject or accept the personality.

I see personality as a set of patterns.

These patterns change with the maturation.

If I speak about "us", it is because I don't feel any difference in your inner mechanisms and mine.

I see desires as one desire, the desire to be what we are. I see quietness without any owner or proprietor. I feel meditation as a realm of silence from which we are re-born at each moment.

I feel personality as an expression of silence, as a wave emerging from the sea.

With the wave or without the wave, the sea is itself. But without the sea, there is no wave.

Such is the personality, which has no existence out of our being, but our being does not need personality for being.

Sorry if I don't answer directly to your questions, but the words come like this.


-----------------------

On Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:22:15 -0500 __LSL__ wrote:

__JMC__ wrote:

__JMC__ quoted: You ask what I do with meditation.
I would rather said what meditation does with us.

__LSL__:Can you really know what it does with "us"? I am more inclined to understand and accept what you say if you speak from your personal experience, rather than tell me what meditation does with me. I am far too much an individual for anyone to tell me 'this is what I will experience'.
        Are you saying that your personality is not a part of your being?

you have chosen to define 'a personal level' as something you do not want to consider. To deny it is to deny a part of yourself, IMO. I am partly taking this point of view to be contrary, and check out your response, Do you have one?

__LSL__



Subj: Re: consciousness

Date: 96-02-13
From: (__JEK__)

Dear __JMC__

On Feb. 7, 1996 you said:

The habit to look at the life as a continuum comes from a fear of the unknown, a search for psychological security.

I sense there is an underlying continuum that is spiritual in nature. If this were not so, we would not exist. Science would have little order or continuum to discover, and therefore little reason to exist. I realize Science, the penultimate search for continuum, did spring from a spiritual heritage, the search for a proof of the existence of God. Nevertheless, the habit of understanding the continuum may also be a search for understanding the richness of our connection with the Divine? Is all intellectualism a meaningless dabbling which avoids the obvious 'Simple Wholeness' with its busy triflings, as many spiritual heritages might suggest? Perhaps this search is also part of the Divine play whose purpose we've yet to discover; a purpose far beyond "fear of the unknown."

A spiritual seeker at the beginning of this century by the name of Rudolf Steiner was of the conviction that Science's only limit was its incessant focus upon physical reality as the only thing worthy of its regard. He called himself a 'Spiritual Scientist'. I believe he recognized and hoped to offer back to the cosmos the one gift we can give back to the spiritual heritage from which we arose. From our unique position of illusory separation, we can witness and testify to the magnificence and diversity of spirit. Only we can see it.

__JMC__ quoted: The habit to look at the life as a continuum comes from a fear of the unknown, a search for psychological security.
A practical organization of the daily life does not alter this freshness of the looking.

__JEK__: The above two statements appear to be in contradiction.

Moment to moment awareness, our sense of ourselves in time, is a continuum that is indeed built upon a "practical organization of daily life"; the memories of our psyches impinging upon the present. It is an adapted way of life; compromised awareness living within the context of a unified field of consciousness. This unified field is indeed the presence of the Divine within which we live.

It is my growing conviction that the apparent distinction between these two realities is an illusion sustained by social assumptions, centuries old spiritual traditions and the personal predisposition of egos, inclined as most are toward self defense. This has been the view of the ego and its struggles in this world. However, isn't it possible for ego to recognize the field within which and for which it lives?

As one sees through the delusion of the 'necessity' for self defense, one beholds the dominion of the Divine. Our limited, individual views float within this well-being. Our illusory struggles and spiritual searches exclude this awareness, but do not at all preclude it. Is it really necessary for ego to work from illusory assumptions? Are fear and protection the foundation of ego? Isn't this just a culturally taught reality most of us unwittingly subscribe to and continue to struggle with?

I see the ego like a software package. It is only working on the assumptions it started with. They can be changed. Better yet, it can recognize the hardware that these programs are running upon, the laws of Truth, Beauty and Love. My perception is that the great spiritual teachers (the Buddha taught us compassion, the Christ taught us love, etc.) lived coexistent realities, and exhorted us to do the same, for the sake of reality. Is this your implication when you said...?

__JMC__ quoted: A practical organization of the daily life does not alter this freshness of the looking.

__JEK__: Another thought.

I am in accord with you and your apparent discontent with the
contents of list. At the same time I recognize the spiritual
healing and re-alignment the people participating in these
ongoing explorations are apparently experiencing. A discussion
of the nature of the true Self may be enlightening to many of us.
It is also of inestimable benefit for people to recognize their
individual path toward this Self through the varieties and
vagaries of their paths. They seem to me to be different levels
and approaches headed toward the same end.

I have spent much of my life considering the differences of
perception that people's posses. The almost limitless variety and
levels of people's perceptions are simultaneously the dilemma
and the beauty.

The list may well serve many functions. For me the list's beauty
is in its variety.

Yours in piece,
__JEK__



Subj: Re: Death

Date: 96-02-13
From: (__JEK__)

In a message dated 96-02-10, __MRY__ write:

__MRY__ quoted:
in Genesis 2:17:

But of the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it: for in
the day that thou eatest
thereof thou shalt surely die.

Dear __MRY__,

I beleve this is an understanding of indentification with duality. If one is aware of the duality of life, then one has a adversarial position with the other, is either good or bad. If we fail to realize the context of spirit (love) we all live within, some one must be right.

Within spirit there is only One Being or No-thing.

All polar understanding must eventually cease to know Spirit.

My understanding is that truth is closer to a triune. Spiritual traditions have all used this perspective to more accurately describe the nature of reality. There is you and me and spirit that holds us.

__JEK__



Subj: Re: Life's Paradoxes

Date: 96-02-13
From: (__BCP__)

In a message dated 96-02-10

Dear __SHR__,
... But I still don't see the paradox. Do you mean the fact that Jesus saved you [juxtaposed (?)] -- while you also had your psychic awareness running so strongly -- creates (that word again) a paradox? If so, I certainly don't find Jesus out of my realm(s) of mastery. I believe he was one of the greatest "Christs" ever to realize that degree of self-realization on the Earth.

__SHR__ quoted: I like that last sentence! Maybe the paradox doesn't lie in Christ's Teachings, which I see as the Basic Truths of all the different Religious Concepts that I've studdied, but in our Interpretations of those Truths. I don't find Jesus or Love juxtaposed to anything, actually.

__BCP__: Somehow I knew that.

But where does the Fundamentalism come in? I guess I usually equate narrowness of perspective and approach, along with alot of structure in one's discipline, and maybe a fair amount of belief that "everyone should do it this way" with any brand of fundamentalism. And so far I see none of that in what you have said.

__BCP__

__SHR__: Well, I don't condone the Fundamentalist Narrow Belief Structure that there is only One Way. What I felt was necessary for me to do at that time was to Focus Only on Christ; no more Guides, Angels or any other Spiritual BEing. I couln't *Trust* my Feelings, Experiences, Dreams, Visions. The only one I Knew I could *Trust* to get me through this was Jesus. My other option was to give in to my attacker, follow the Death Wish and die. I clung to the only One Light I Knew I could *Trust*. That's why I say I returned to my fundamentalist roots. It's been less than 6 months that I could open up to my Guides and Angels again, that I can began to *Trust* the broader Spectrum of Universal Love.

Love & Light, __SHR__

__BCP__: Well, geez, __SHR__, I guess we just can't disagree on anything! ;-D
What I meant was... Well, I don't see why you'd label yourself with any kind of description that suggested fundamentalist...at least as far as I read so far (it's a far far way to...) .. .. .. (keep seeing THAT word too...)
Ok, ahem...
   And I don't see the paradox -- face it, __SHR__, you're just a normal prayer-focused, angel-guided, (and strange) occultist, and, ("worst" of all) t-h-i-n-k-i-n-g individualist freak like (most of) the rest of us on this list!
    THAT should get yr dander up ... Or probably not.. <grin>

Blessings, __BCP__



Subj: Comments on meditation and spirimed list

Date: 96-02-14
From: (WSA, Ph.D.)

These are my "from my perspective" comments -- caused by some Saturday, February 10, 1996 posts. I'll somewhat lengthily comment on two subjects: meditation and the spirimed list. And I'll comment on meditation first. From my perspective, not as many persons who feel they are meditating really are. Meditation is a form of self hypnosis -- during which time a relative freedom from conscious "static" exists allowing a focusing on relative unconscious matters. This process, to be "successful", must have focus (or foci.) Intentionally putting one's conscious processes in abeyance is not easy. And it isn't often appreciated, but remaining in the conscious state also isn't easy. It requires effort. When the conscious is not "stimulated" or occupied by sensory inputs, it recedes and different states occupy a person's attention -- among which are meditative states, hypnotic states and physical sleep -- plus others less defineable. On the surface this appears to be a simplistic explanation of meditation, hypnosis and sleep. This isn't intended. Like the "deeper" stages of hypnosis, fewer than believe can reach a state of conscious suspension deep enough to be called meditation. This isn't to say that more persons couldn't learn the art, but it is to say that all who say they meditate actually don't. And some would say that meditation doesn't exist, only a different focusing of attention exists. Here we get into semantics, which I hate becasue "arguments" result.

Putting the conscious into abeyance, reaching into the "deeper" recesses of the unconscious carries certain cautions. In the unconscious, we are dealing with a different communication system, a different "language." The unconscious deals in words, of course, but it also deals in symbols, metaphors, word games, steganograms, secrets and hidden meanings. The strange symbolic, metaphoric, cryptographic materials of dreams are good representaions of the language of the unconscious. This being said, it goes without further saying that taking the material gleaned from the unconscious as "the real thing" should be viewed with certain caution -- it "aint'" all it appears to be.

Supplicating prayers, giving-thanks prayers, adoration prayers, when a person has successfully set aside conscious "static", are more apt to have salubrious results than when the "static" persists. Here again focus is important. Calling this process medication is all right; calling it self-hypnosis is also all right. Whatever it is called isn't as important as it is that the person feels comfortable that during his/her "meditaion", there is an opportunity to be in contact with their inner self to the emd that they are also in communication with God. Our serious prayers are our communciation with God. Comments?

The second subject, the spirimed list: From my perspective, Dr. __JMC__'s wide-open forum (within the health care borders)approach --sharing, sensing others' needs, inner self search, finding one's self and gaining satisfaction, introducing personal perspectives, agreeing/disagreeing with civility, describing personal/professional applications of the most important part, the spirit, learning, satisfying other's needs are all part of the list's "opennes." From what I've seen, there has been more of all this than I've seen on other lists. And that's good. Need I say more?

__WSA__

-----------------------

Subj: Re: What we have not yet become....

Date: 96-02-14
From: (__LSL__)

__NCI__ wrote about the feeling of growth and expansion:
__NCI__ quoted:
upward enlarging spiral. This way of thinking about growth has been very meaningful to me. And I am also at a point in my life where I sense a shift in direction or some major upcoming change which I am not clear about yet but which requires that I be open to the process. And, I think it will mean walking into some more fear. Like the circle is coming back aroud.

__NCI__, you might want to read "Bringers of the Dawn" by Barbara Marciniak. In this book she gives a wonderful frame on which you might interpret your recent expansion. She specifically mentions a spiral type of awareness, which it also my strong experience of energy flow between me and surrounding energy.

Namaste' __LSL__

-----------------------

Subj: Re: Comments on meditation and spirimed list

Date: 96-02-16
From: (__BMR__)

concerning meditation:

I agree with you __WSA__ when you say "not as many persons who feel they are meditating really are". I've had to go back and re-read what you said about meditation being a sort of self-hypnosis. I think we are dealing a lot with semantics here.

I have considerable experience with meditation and the setting aside of "everyday awareness". My experiences in the realms of the unconscious came on strongly during my near-death and extended spiritual emergency 26 years ago. Since that time I have used meditation on pretty much a daily basis. My meditation enables me to access the worlds of the unconscious.

In my view, what passes as the experience of "reality" - the everyday awareness" - if you will, is a form of hypnosis. We are in trance states, hypnotized by the appearances. In our western culture, the worlds of form and appearance have become for many all that there is.

Is it not pretty much agreed in psychological circles that the unconscious is real, that conscious awareness is just the tip of the iceberg, and that unconscious awareness affects us to a strong degree, if not to a much stronger degree than conscious awareness?

Are the waters of the unconscious navigable? I believe they are. Meditation is the boat and the compass.

Meditation is a doorway to profound awareness. In the accounts I have read of meditation masters such as the Tibetan lamas, it is clear to me that these masters have attained the depths and clarity of states far beyond what we imagine or conceive. To me these states are Reality - beyond appearance, profoundly Unitive, empty and free.

__BMR__



Subj: Processes

Date: 96-02-16
From: (__KRI__)

This was posted on another mail list. I asked for permission to repost it to this group, since it seems to fit with the issues that Spiramed has been strugging with ...

"First, please know that I am not unsympathetic to the wounds of abuse.

From your hearing of Carolyn Myss' tape, you may have got that impression but I must clarify for you and the others. I have been a therapist for a good many years and during the course of that time have held the vision of wholeness for a good many survivors of all sorts of abuse, including ritual abuse. I have the deepest regard and empathy for these people, each and every one. One of the most important parts of this healing process in general is to hold out the knowledge that we are not our wounds. I have been wounded and you have been wounded and yet, this wound is not my identity. It is an event or series of events in my life to which I reacted with great shame and horror and pain and which have shaped the course of my life in ways too numerous to count. We are not our wounds, thank God. Each one of us, no matter how terribly we have been hurt, is far, far more than this prison of pain and shame which we've built around us in order to survive.

There are many steps or phases in the growth of the healing process. The first part involves opening up the dark secrets and telling---telling ourselves and telling certain others. This includes crying, screaming, raging, pounding, howling and all of it. Most of the time there is a great need to reclaim our rage especially. For some people there is a greater need to reclaim tenderness. For others, grief. But always, all of the above.

 During this time, we can benefit greatly from survivor groups, therapy, certain trustworthy friends and so forth. If we do not get to voice our story, we will be stuck under its weight forever. And voice it often and loud and clearly.

We need to reclaim what was always ours but what we misunderstood: our innocence. Our purity. Our right to have been treated differently. Our great undeserved betrayal. During this time it is good to begin to learn to trust ourselves. And to trust safe touch and hugs. We need to ask for what we want and become our own advocates. We need to learn that we are right in wanting what we want. We need to learn to the needs of others without cancelling out our own. To negotiate from a place of "Both/and" not "either/or". We need to see clearly how the wounds that we suffered back "then" keep us even now in chains. And then we need to loosen, and break and step out of these chains.

At this point in the process it gets a bit tricky. This is because what worked at the beginning will only hold us back now. This is what Carolyn Myss is speaking about. She uses the analogy of a boat. She says the boat is to get you from one shore to the other, but some people never get out of the boat! This is an imperative step in the healing process. It will never allow us to move on if we do not leave the boat behind.

What is the boat? It is the part of the process where we say what happened. Where we say out loud, "I was abused." Where we work through the happenings in our minds and see what was done to us by whom. Where we can say, "I am a person who has survived abuse." Where we express our feelings about the past. Where in a way, we live in the past, until we bring what is needed to heal, into the present.

Please understand that Myss does not advocate getting out of the boat in the middle of the stream. She is talking about the trap of identifying with our wounds which we can take on as a permanent identity, rather than with our healed self.

In a complete healing process, our wounds, with all the strengths and weaknesses that formed around those experiences, become less and less important in the larger sense of self. They become integrated along with all the other parts of who we are. And who we really are...who we always were but didn't have a chance to know it...who we deserve to be is a whole person--not a collection of wounds. At this point, we just have scars, old spots here and there along with the place where we fell off the bicycle, where we cut our hand on an old wire, where we broke our arm at camp...whatever it is. Yes this is something that may flare up occasionally, but IT IS NOT ME. And yes, it is at this stage in the process, not before, that we will begin to let go..to forgive. Not for the sake of the others, but for ourselves. For our very lives. In Myss' experience, the people who get this part confused are likely to never heal.

She thinks that one of the reasons is that in this new time of evolving human consciousness, we are just learning to speak a language of intimacy. Her theory is that we use "woundology" as a way of establishing intimacy with another person. In my experience, this happens quite frequently. This is ultimately a trap because it becomes intricately linked with our ability to establish closeness with others and we are unlikely to give it up if we believe that we will have to give up intimacy at the same time. Again, this is about process of healing. Use the boat. Get to where you are going safely, for as far and as long as that takes. But when you do find yourself covering old ground in a too-familiar way, when you can't seem to go on, look to see if you are finally at the other shore and you are still sitting in the boat. If this is the case, get out.

If I have neglected to fill in some parts that would help understand this better, or if you want to contest this view, feel free to say so. I am quite comfortable with differences and discussion. I would, however, like to be asked about my point of view as I'm sure all of us packmates would. On the other hand, I want you to know that I think you were reaching out in attempt to care for another of your packmates, in a very protective way. I admire someone who will growl for others.

And another thing, I for one have really enjoyed your writing and your deep thinking, and I hope you will continue to share.

And I would like to make a plea to all our packmates: We are learning a new communication. I don't know if it will ultimately "work" or what that would mean. If you sat with me and heard me speak and saw my body and face, and I with you, these conversations would be heard and understood in a very different way at times. Perhaps all the time. Let us all take on this "virtual" pack without assuming that we have nothing to learn. We have everything to learn in this form. Let us try not to make assumptions...I will try. I hope you will too.

Love,
__PTR__"

-----------------------

Subj: Re: Processes

Date: 96-02-16
From: (__JAB__)

__KRI__, thanks for the forwarded msg about moving beyond the past Myss is speaking about. She uses the analogy of a boat. She says the boat "is to get you from one shore to the other, but some people never get out of the boat! This is an imperative step in the healing process. It will never allow us to move on if we do not leave the boat behind."

The similar analogy a friend told me recently was: The bridge's usefulness in getting you across the canyon does not mean that you must continue to use it - going back and forth, forever - nor does it mean that dragging the bridge along will speed your journey now that you're on solid ground.

   __JAB__

-----------------------

Subj: Re: Affirmations

Date: 96-02-18
From: (__JEK__)

Dear all,

First, I'd like to offer a short, formal introducion (I have impulsively sent out posts recently) as I come 'out-of-lurking.'

I have been interested in our spiritual natures for many years. This has led me into teaching in Waldorf schools, learning Astrology, meditating, self exploring through therapy and process work in the Diamond Heart work of A.H.Almaas, and currently teaching courses on the Enneagram. I have a philosophical nature, so you will all have to forgive my apparently 'heady' nature (though it is very heartfelt).

I am also a Hellerwork practitioner in the Seattle area.

I am deeply interested in the ongoing exlporation of who we are and how we become a fuller expression of our 'Real' nature.

It has been rewarding to read your posts over the past week since I joined the list.

Onward....

__BMR__,

I appreciate your affirmations. There is one change I would make.

In paragraph three, I would be more inclined to say, "You are lovable and capable. You are perfect in your process and your becoming. You can and will learn. You can make changes when you are ready. The timetable is up to you. You are still becoming. You are you. Believe it, that is ENOUGH!"

Somehow, for me I do see it as perfect, even including the glaring faults and need for growth and change. The question for me has been for several years, what to do about all those fear agendas and unnecessary self protections I see myself and other people doing? They are creating a mess.

As my life moves on, I become more and more convinced that the 'dark' issues, as a teacher once told me, are the substance of my spritual lessons. They may indeed be keeping me (or whomever I'm working with) from recognizing my real nature. Even this tunnel vision has a purpose. The 'dark' sides of myself are areas that my soul yearns to understand, more particularly the spiritual foundations of these 'addictions'. They control my life to hold my interest, on a spiritual level. Unfortunately I lose the main plot in the drama because of the intensity of the subplot.

The apparently impulsive sides of myself (I am firmly convinced I have chosen them from some loftier plane from where I could better witness my 'soul's needs') are areas to understand. I can and will choose to unravel this web whenever I choose. In order to do that there has to be a higher sense of who I am and what I am doing; enter 12 step, fundamentalism, and all spiritual traditions. I feel this is the work all of us are working upon at this time.

As I heal and integtrate, I recognize the Spiritual impulse under the outward, distructive actions I may have been manifesting. These habits of protection transform into something else in my life. I recognize spiritual impulses riding under those fertive, unnecessary, self protective habits I have developed as a strategies for survival.

Personal example: Instead of using Spiritual Systems of Knowledge to chategorize and safely pigeonhole people in my life so I can feel safe standing above and away from them, I begin to see that what my soul is really seeking is to understand and live within the rich Spiritual complexity of Wisdom we all swim within. I now want to share that richness with those I meet so we can participate more fully in the vulneability and intimacy of life, as I witness it to be.

Unfortunately, the habits of my old personal agendas of self protection don't know how to do that. The focus of the addictive habits has given me many tools. Now I need to learn how to function in the world with the tools but without the habits. The next chapter in my healing is learning be with my-Self without letting my-self get in the way (to reenter the confusing 's' dialogue),without diminishing the intensity of the feelings it is experiencing. That's a whole discussion in itself. There is a true energy my soul wants to understand as a part my self, my Self, life and spirit. The exploration goes on.

My growth toward spiritual reunion is personal. Even though my issues are unique, many people may have passed near these junctures during their own growth, . These are the people whom I choose as my 'healers' and teachers.

I did not intend this to be so long and far reaching. It was merely an exploration of how I see the perfection of it all. I hope it is not too abstract. People tell me that I get that way and it makes it hard to understand what I am saying. I do think in broad, philosophical terms, but would be glad to discuss any of this further. In any case, this has been very healing for me to write.

It's nice to be aboard.

Thanks for all your honest sharing.

Love to you,
__JEK__



Subj: a newsletter on transformation

Date: 96-02-19
From: (__JMC__)

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 21:38:04 CST
From: WholeWorld@aol.com
Subject: NEW: Transformation Digest - Human transformation newsletter

Transformation Digest on WholeWorld@AOL.com

   Transformation Digest is a monthly free newsletter providing information on the latest in human transformation techniques, including occasional synopses of the techniques themselves. For example, learn about new insights from people who've had a near death experience, or get the latest information on self help techniques from fields as diverse as NeuroLinguistic Programming and Shamanism.

   To subscribe, send the following message to WholeWorld@AOL.com

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   Owner: Moderator: Michael Martino WholeWorld@AOL.com



Subj: Re: Additional comments on meditation

Date: 96-02-20
From: (__BMR__)

Dear Dr. __WSA__,

Good to hear from you. I am interested in continuing this discussion on meditation, at least for now, as meditation is very relevant to the conduct of my life. Meditation allows deeper energies to flow through, to suffuse the affairs of everyday life. It is necessary for me to come from a place of depth, even in the practice of everyday affairs.

__WSA__ quoted: I am looking at meditation from the perspective that it *requires* a narrowing of conscious attention, or said another way, requires putting conscious awareness in abeyance -- the same as hypnosis requiraes.

__BMR__: Putting conscious awareness in abeyance may be effective in certain meditation modalities. I prefer to see meditation as bringing one's conscious awareness into the greater field of awareness. This greater field of awareness subsumes both conscious awareness and unconscious awareness. This greater field is Being itself. I see effective meditation as an "entering in". As there is nothing to hold back, there is nothing to suspend.

Buddhism (Hinudism as well) teaches we are *that Awareness* already. Tat tvam asi. Meditation is a practice of letting go of the part that thinks we are something other; the conscious awareness as it were.

__WSA__ quoted: Would you like to share with all your NDE experience? Dr. Melvin Morse ("Closer to the Light" and "Parting Visions") gives accounts of NDEs -- fascinating reading!

__BMR__: I am always happy to share my experiences. I've posted about my nde and spiritual emergency here a few times. Rather than take up the space here, which some may find wearying, I'll send my experience off to you and whoever else might request.

__BMR__




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Subj: Re: Efficacy of prayerful "silence" in therapy -- the spirit self.

Date: 96-02-21
From: (__JEK__)

Dear "Dr. __WSR__",

Very astute. I concure with you hypothesis.

__WSR__ quoted: An accepting attitude and a nurturing atmosphere is essential to use the subunconsscious (my term for 'spirit') energy --the energy of our *Creator*! I stress that the 'accepting attitude and nurturing atmosphere', a deep relaxation, prayerful meditation, supplication, purposeful isolation, etc. are essential.

__JEK__: The nature of this 'accepting attitude' I believe could be fostered or harmed by the talk that goes on between patient and therapist. I believe the nature and quality of the conversation, primarily dictated by the attitude of the therapist, and where in the theraputic process the two people are, would determine whether or not conversation would be 'healing'. Conversation can particpate in this attitude of silence. Witness the poetry of Rumi.

Thanks for the provocative post.

__JEK__



Subj: No Subject

Date: 96-02-21
From: (__JEK__)

Reike healer, but familiar with the rumblings of the question in my doubting mind. I sense it is a matter of sensing the quality, when all parts of you sense the harmony and integration of what you're doing. The name "The Ninth Symphony" is not the experience of the music. At that point, there is little consternation about who's doing what and what the label says.

__JEK__

In a message dated 96-02-19, ? write:

"how do we know if we are truly healers, if we can truly
be conduits for healing? (Of course, this query stands, as well,
for healers of all stripes.)"



Subj: Re: cutting off your hand

Date: 96-02-21
From: (__JEK__)

__BCP__,

In a message dated 96-02-21, you write:

__BCP__ quoted: How does one Know for sure (for full-bodied-feeling-experience sure) what unity is unless one knows what duality is?

__JEK__: The old recognition that God wanted to know Itself, and so created the appartent worlds of separation - duality.

My feeling is that Unity is a given (was it here that someone sait 1 is the number contained within all the other numbers?). The dilemma for us is we get so caught in the play of the duality, we have difficulty slowing down, being silent, and living in the unity. We're back to the silence and meditation.

__BCP__ quoted: Couldn't the idea of our body being a vehicle also imply that duality is the vehicle for understanding -- and certainly appreciating -- unity consciousness to its fullest?

__JEK__: I certainly hope so. This is my quest for exploring how to make sense of all this diversity staring my in the face without falling for the old Eastern paradigm that this is only Maya, something to be overcome in order to reintegrate with the Divine. They are both present and give each other meaning.

__JEK__

-----------------------

Subj: Re: Truncated appendages...


Date: 96-02-21
From: (__JEK__)

In a message dated 96-02-21, you write:

__BCP__ quoted: So in a strange circle, I get back to the idea of "discussion between" pain and pleasure, between dimensions of the self. That discussion can only happen if the Self 's own voice is facilitated by minimizing pain - not by denying it, but by having the opportunity to determine a comfort zone that enhances self-expression!

__JEK__: This is a perplexing question you raise.

'Lopping off' and 'ignoring' are both, in my opinion, anitquated (patriarchal) solutions. I am continually goaded toward a more compassionate approach. It is an approach that is not understood, has little 'establishment' recognition, substantiation or support, and needs much further clarification.

The dilemma for me is the 'field' in which 'discussion' will take place. Though certainly not of the magnitude you are experiencing and work with, I am reminded of my explorations of pain on long meditation retreats. After 2 or 3 days of sitting, my bodies scream of reaction to such an unnatural experience of being confined forced me to regard nothing else but this expreience. This was obviously one of the discussions of the facilitator of the retreat needed to address. It was a common experience for the retreatents, and one he was familiar with in his own explorations of the monastic life. His realization was to explore it all. Recognize the experience of the pain, the experience of what your mind was saying about the pain (which would divorce you from the experience - the real experiece of the pain is a constantly shifting panorama), and the place inside of you that was experiencing both. The latter experience is very hard to describe, for it has little of the energy or content of the other two experiences, but is the place from which pain can begin to be 'managed'. I would infer that this is what you are alluding to in your reference to the Self.

The tricky part is being able to minimize the intensity of the experience of pain in order to recognize a much quieter regard of 'yourself' that might be able to reframe the experience of pain. Where does this minimization come from. Does one turn down the experience, explore the reactions of the mind, or seek to experience the ever-so-quiet side of oneself (hard to do in the best of circumstances) which can watch the pain without reaction? If one medicates the neurological experience of pain, does this concurrently dampen the experience the Self that might be the mediator between the minds label of 'pain' and the sensorial experience? Does this, de facto, give the power to the pain, by succumbing to its urgency, while overlooking what might be some greater resource and solution?

You have a great deal more experience and urgency around this question than I do. I can only offer this as a point of inquiry, and have no answers. This may be only a goad for the further exploration of what is obviously the focus of your work. I hope I am not being too blith or theoretical with what I sense is a very sensitive experinece for you. I offer it very humbly, for life places much less urgent agendas upon my life. I trust you will find an eminently workable solution to your questions. Its is such necessary work.

It has implications way beyond the immediacy and urgency your pain forces upon you. I believe this is the question each of us faces when we confront our individual, ego pain.

Blessings on your work, for your and other's release,

__JEK__



Subj: Re: Additional comments on meditation

Date: 96-02-21
From: (__JEK__)

Dear __WSA__ and __BMR__,

I have been following your discussion about meditation with rapt attention. The clear understanding and eloquent exploration of the pertinence of this practice resonates with my experience. Knowing the signicance of meditation, I am also aware that this may be a key to the solution of our Western dualistic dilemmas.

It is my conviction that meditation is the experience of the:

__BMR__ quoted: greater field of awareness. This greater field of awareness subsumes both conscious awareness and unconscious awareness. This greater field is Being itself.

It is also my conviction that there is an implication and prejudice in our over-dualized Western culture, and in the lineage of the meditative tradition; a wish to elevate this unified awareness 'above' the limited experience of individuality.

In my readings of Dr. Steiner, to whom I have referred before, there is a picture that the evolution of consciouness is a long and arduous path. For him, physical reality is not the only thing that evolves. Part of this cosmology (and we all consciously or unconsciously have a cosmology) is that the last 5,000 years of the Earth exerience (they called it the Kaliyuga (sp?) - the period of darkness) has been witness to a slow receding from direct spiritual perception of our spiritual natures in favor of the fascination with outer experience. The East, as a mother culture, was the carrier of the techniques for reconnecting with the spiritual organs of perception within us. A major tool is meditaiton. The perspective of this culture was that we were losing connection with our spiritual roots, the true nature of our being, which was true. We were losing our way, getting lost in our fascination with the outer dual experience. Their solution was to use these tools to focus on what is 'real', and ignore the rest. Ignore the 'Maya'.

Enter the consciousness of the __BCP__t, the next chapter. The impact of this being is the message that Spiritual reality is both inside and outside us. Treat everything as though it were Divine.

So now we are coming into contact with those mechanisms of awareness which allow us to recognize and appreciate the Unity of our experience. The challenge, as I see it, is to use these techniques to awaken a unified awareness, and then to bring this awareness into our interactions on this plane of duality, within us and outside of us. The impact of this awareness, unity and duality coexisting (recognizably a dual statement) has yet to be explored and implemented. Dr. Steiner would say, if I may be presumptuous, that this is the work we are beginning to do (most of the people I know are exploring and harmonizing their inner conflicts - a difficult and necessary work - accomplished only within the field of compassionate under-standing, within the 'field'). My understanding of his indications is that this is the nature of the 'Second Coming'.

A key, in my experience, is the practice of meditation as a means of experiencing the field within which we live. It is the groundwork necessary to understand and explore the experience of duality. God gets to know Her/Himself through our extremely diverse experiences.

In my zealousness, I may be reading into your discussion something that is not there. I hope this does not appear antagonistic to your discussion.

I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about this.

__JEK__



Subj: Re: Efficacy of prayerful "silence" in therapy -- the spirit self.

Date: 96-02-22
From: (__SCS__)

It seems to me that there are many different kinds of silence in therapy. The absence of spoken words does not necessarily connote an inner silence.

Silence can be a form of distancing or of connecting with self or other. We can be lost in silence or fantasizing in silence or crying out in silence or opening in silence. Silence has a palpable felt quality, sometimes more immediate than any words, sometimes needing to be articulated, sometimes needing simply to be experienced and shared.

Sitting in silence with a client I have experienced the range from an absorption into stillness to the liquid out-flowing of the heart to the most chilling emptiness, and then so much in between...

Regards, __SCS__



Subj: Re: cutting off your hand - (& neuromuscular re-education)

Date: 96-02-22
From: (__BCP__)

In a message dated 96-02-22, you write:

__JEK__ quoted: with Feldenkrais or other neuromuscular re-education type bodywork. ....__BCP__ Oops, you lost me. What is it you're saying will round out and fill in the gaps? I have worked with a couple of NLP therapist; that was fun, but it's kind of spookey, too.

__BCP__: I'll speak to generally applied neuromuscular re-education since I'm not trained in Feldenkrais particularly, although I have experienced it and learned much from that. It's not an easy one to describe quickly, but it involves the therapist holding and moving your body, limbs, etc in such a way as to generate awareness/connectedness in the bodymind, "rewiring" the system -- waking up the proprio-receptors - and the capability of the soft tissue to sense it's appropriate place/position and state of tension in a whatever given circumstance. It "wakes up" the muscle tissue, breaking holding and/or movement patterns, etc. It's very subtle work, and because of that it can be quite amazing in its results. Emotional release can accompany the physical releases, or it may not, or various forms of processing on other levels may be initiated from that point and more noticably surface later on - like most bodytherapy effects. I acknowledge that the timing of those things are pretty much up to the client and am generally open to the natural flow of events. "Generally" here means that occasionally I am led to push a little or restrain a little because of some insight about the timing being both important to consider and apparently somewhat up to me.

I would lnvite __JEK__ to comment on this (as if this forum requires an invite in such cases - not ) - I believe he might some valuable training in related therapies.

More on this in my essay, "BodyMind Integration in the Personal Growth Process," Published in MASSAGE MAGAZINE, July-Aug, '92. (long - 20+KB, semi-technical, available via email).

My guess, __SHR__, by the way, is that the above noted essay is not so dense that you could not get most of the concepts and intellectual material, -- Based on what you've posted on line.

Blessings,

__BCP__

-----------------------

Subj: Re: J__JEK__: cutting off your hand

Date: 96-02-22
From: (__BCP__)

In a message dated 96-02-21, __JEK__* writes:

__JEK__ quoted: ...This is my quest for exploring how to make sense of all this diversity staring my in the face without falling for the old Eastern paradigm that this is only Maya, something to be overcome in order to reintegrate with the Divine. They are both present and give each other meaning. __JEK__

__BCP__: Alot of my writing is based on the paradox that these *appear* to present. And that may be a common thread among the more "gestalt bodyworkers" -- those that enjoy the "feel" of the energy flow and the kinesthetic texture, while also trying to understand "the grand picture." Or is this just with the number nine types?

Really appreciate your input, BTW.

__BCP__

-----------------------

Subj: Re: Truncated appendages...

Date: 96-02-22
From: __JEK__

__BCP__,

The physiological and associative discriptions in your essay, on a theoretical level, are interesting and may be of stimulating accademic interest to her.

I think you should do what you feel is right. She may find your exploration helpful. I don't think it is inappropriate.

__JEK__



Subj: Re: Feeling the Grand picture

Date: 96-02-22
From: (__JEK__)

__BCP__,

Your question leaves me nonplused. Are you wondering if 'Mediators' want to feel the Grand picture?

__JEK__



Subj: Re: antagonistic/seductive dualism

Date: 96-02-24
From: (__BCP__)

In a message dated 96-02-23, you write:

__JEK__ quoted: 'Holographic hedonism', great phrase. The question for me always is who is doing the looking and wanting of experience. The part of me that wants or rejects experience is the suffering-creator within me. This is the part of me that witnesses the world as antagonistic/seductive dualism. This is the whole discussion I'm having with __JMC__. That part is coming from some sense of lack within me, more than likely historical. It needs to be healed so I can be here, recognizing that this experience is complete. The hologram means to me that the Universe is totally within and without me, if I can allow myself to be with it.
__JEK__

Yes. And, again, I identify. __BMR__, __SCS__, __LSL__, and I were having discussions here that I seemed to be continually trying to bring around to the same table, so to speak. You speak to these paradoxes with a great deal of capabililty and obvious experience in the realms that __JMC__ seems to reside in. { Hello, __JMC__, Namaste '} And you do this, with a certain freshness of the pain that you refer to. Or rather I should say -- it seems to me -- that you refer to it, because I admit that I may very well be projecting my own pain around these things onto this discussion.

__BCP__



Subj: Re: consciousness

Date: 96-02-23
From: (__BCP__)

In a message dated 96-02-22, you write:

...............
__JMC__ quoted: I think that there is a possible liberation from the psychological memory. The facts remain how they were, but their rememory does not anymore created a reaction of refusal or agreement. .................

__BCP__: And that's where all the work is (and the basis of 99% of all psychological theory and practice). The rest you speak of is our goal, and we seem to be trying very often to avoid time and space and still accomplish that goal. Now THAT would be a fine trick to perform.

__BCP__



Subj: No Subject

Date: 96-02-23
From: (__BCP__)

In a message dated 96-02-22, you write:

__JEK__ quoted:
__BCP__,
Your question leaves me nonplused. Are you wondering if 'Mediators' want to feel the Grand picture?
__JEK__

No, I was making the comment regarding those folks, often becoming therapists presumably, who LIKE TO perceive their world with those kinds of sense-fulfillments being priorities, along or simultaneous with the intellectual understanding of "how it works", along or simultaneous with the intuitive based connectedness with the whole of it. I'm not saying that such folks "live" there, but there is the enjoyment of as much of all three or four of those levels, more or less simultaneously, as one can get. Call it holographic hedonism if you want to, but I generally sense this among the gestalt-oriented bodyworkers. OR ... maybe it's just me. How come I feel out on a limb somewhere?

__BCP__

RE:
__JEK__ quoted: ....-- those that enjoy the "feel" of the energy flow and the kinesthetic texture, while also trying to understand "the grand picture." Or is this just with the number nine types?

PS: I know long repeats of responded to message are the taboo, but for what it's worth, I am helped by short ones, at least when others are responding to me.



Subj: Re: neuromuscular re-education

Date: 96-02-23
From: (__JEK__)
 

Dear __BCP__ and __SHR__,

There is a whole range of 'somatic education' modalities. The general theme is that the body cannot sense its inherent 'structural integration' because it is so used to experiencing life from an adapted, tense arrangement. These modalities attempt to have one experience what it would be like to live and move with ease. This sounds simple, but once we move out of our sense of safety, even though it may involve great tension, which is our familiar sense of ourselves, we become affraid. This is were the emotional release is experienced. We hold our feelings in the pattern of how we hold our bodies.
         To experience ourselves without reference to our sense of our (tense) selves is indeed terrifying to the 'remember self'. To the 'child' self, it is only natural.

Remined of the Biblical, "In order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, you must be as a little child."

Hope this helps,

__JEK__

In a message dated 96-02-22, you write:

__BCP__ quoted: in such a way as to generate awareness/connectedness in the bodymind, "rewiring" the system -- waking up the proprio-receptors - and the capability of the soft tissue to sense it's appropriate place/position and state of tension in a whatever given circumstance. It "wakes up" the muscle tissue, breaking holding and/or movement patterns



Subj: Re: consciousness

Date: 96-02-23
From: (__JEK__)

In a message dated 96-02-22, you write:

__JMC__ quoted: From such a perspective, it appears possible to function from moment to moment, with a clear perception of the present events and their relation with past actions, without the weight of guilty and regret.

This instantaneous living is compatible with a good functional memory: practical organization of daily life, etc...

When the psychological memory is involved, there is usually some affective reactions of contentment or discontentment.

When life is perceived through memory, it becomes boring. It losts the freshness of the constant re-born experience of the present moment.

In such a way, a full adequation with the present moment is not contradictory with a functional organization of the daily life.

Dear __JMC__,

Perhaps 'contradictory' is not the right word. There is for me in this a whole exploration of what embodying spirituality means.

__JMC__ quoted: The taste of life comes from a full integration of the present moment.

__JMC__: What is the role of emotion in this experience? The primary issue of overcoming, or perhaps more appropriately resolving one's psychological reactions is a key factor to realizing the equinimity of one's spiritual nature. I agree with you:

__JMC__ quoted: I think that there is a possible liberation from the psychological memory. The facts remain how they were, but their rememory does not anymore created a reaction of refusal or agreement.

__JMC__: But what is 'affective involvement'?

__JMC__ quoted: When the functional memory is involved, there is usually no affective involvement.

__JMC__: My questioning is because I recognize within myself a great range of feeling, some of which are associated with my psychological, remembered associations, and others which fall outside the range of personal agendas. The former is the work I continue to engage with in order to liberate myself from the aversions and graspings you and Buddhism acknowledge as the source of our suffering:

__JMC__ quoted: - for a part psychological, based on joy and suffering, colorated by the attempts to grasp the first and avoid the second.

__JMC__: The other emotional experiences are outside the awareness of sympathy or antipathy. These are the feelings of love, strength, compassion, wonder, etc. A man named E.J.Gold has stated that the spiritual side of us has only three qualities. They are presence, attention (both the focus of meditation) and adoration. Adoration is of the heart, presence of the body or being, and attention of the mind. As I experience myself residing in these qualities, there is available the full range of human feeling, but I am not attached to any of them.

I am reminded of a story told by Swami Satchitananda. He was riding on a train. A passenger on the train was being particularly annoying to himself and the other passengers. After repeated appeals to refrain from antagonizing the people in the passenger car, Swami turned to the man and, putting on the face of a lion, yelled at the man. He became very frightened and left the car. Another passenger, knowing that this was a holy man, asked how he, a man of tranquility, could act in such a manner. The Swami, nonplused by the incident or the inquiry, merely said that somethimes it is necessary to speak to people in the only language they understand. Anger is an emotion you have available in your repetoire. It is only a problem when it uses you.

I guess I am reticent to have spirituality and feeling juxtaposed against each other. Spirituality has all too often been used as a means of suppressing our feelings. When feelings are denied, they move underground and can control a placid external presentation. I am convinced that feelings need resolution which leads to an enlightened way of living. Is this what you meant when you said?:

It needs a full acceptance of the succession of events and reactions that we call past.

I appreciate this discussion.

__JEK__



Subj: Re: neuromuscular re-education

Date: 96-02-24
From: (__BCP__)

In a message dated 96-02-23, you write:

__JEK__ quoted: To experience ourselves without reference to our sense of our (tense) selves is indeed terrifying to the 'remember self'. To the 'child' self, it is only natural.

Remined of the Biblical, "In order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, you must be as a little child."

Hope this helps,
__JEK__

__BCP__: INDEED! I certainly like the way you put it.
In fact, can I quote you, can I use this in my book?
(the whole of your last message)

__BCP__



Subj: Re: consciousness

Date: 96-02-24
From: (__JMC__)

Dear __JEK__,

Your remark concerning some emotions which don't belong to personal reactions is really right.

I think we can differentiate emotion from emotivity.

Emotivity is related to a choice system of likes and dislikes, connected to memory.

Emotion is the direct expression of our nature.

In the overwhelming by love and thankful, there is no lover and no beloved, there is only love.

Love does not need any experiencer or object for being.

Love is one, but the expressions of love are infinite.

There is generally a confusion between love and its expressions,

The emotion can bring us directly to its source which is the beauty itself.

Concerning the affective involvement:

The affective involvement is a reaction. It comes from a subject-object relationship with the situation. The mind creates an entity called myself, a second one called yourself, and a third one called the world. Between these three pseudo-entities there is a reaction. As the sparks resulting from the struggle between fire and wood for becoming one, the mind-creations react until they dissolve in the silent depth.

So long we take these mind-creations as real, we react following these beliefs. These reactions are called involvement.

When a mind-creation is recognized as unreal, a mirage, the reaction vanishes.

What remains is what we are.

We are not a reaction, but the background in which the reaction occurs. This background is not an object. We cannot perceive it. We are it. And we cannot see what we are.

Concerning anger:

As an echo of what you are saying, I also feel that there is a place for an anger which is not a reaction, but a kind of divine anger. This anger is the expression of the fight between harmony and disharmony, of the need of harmony to be fully revealed through the vessel of the body-mind structure. It is oriented towards some parts of the personality which are not attuned to the being.

We could say that consciousness acts as a tuner. The body-mind is the instrument which needs to be tuned. In such a perspective, a life-time would only be the necessary moment for a vibratory attuning, until that there is nothing more to be attuned. At this moment, the ego-personality becomes transparent and does not hinder anymore the radiance of the Self.

On Fri, 23 Feb 1996 17:35:10 -0500 __JEK__ wrote:

The taste of life comes from a full integration of the present moment.

__JMC__ quoted: What is the role of emotion in this experience?

__JMC__: I agree with you:

__JMC__ quoted: I think that there is a possible liberation from the psychological memory. The facts remain how they were, but their rememory does not anymore created a reaction of refusal or agreement.

__JMC__: But what is 'affective involvement'?

__JMC__ quoted:When the functional memory is involved, there is usually no affective involvement.

__JMC__: My questioning is because I recognize within myself a great range of feeling, some of which are associated with my psychological, remembered associations, and others which fall outside the range of personal agendas.

The other emotional experiences are outside the awareness of sympathy or antipathy. These are the feelings of love, strength, compassion, wonder, etc. A man named E.J.Gold has stated that the spiritual side of us has only three qualities. They are presence, attention (both the focus of meditation) and adoration. Adoration is of the heart, presence of the body or being, and attention of the mind. As I experience myself residing in these qualities, there is available the full range of human feeling, but I am not attached to any of them.

__JMC__ quoted: Anger is an emotion you have available in your repertoire. It is only a problem when it uses you.

__JMC__: Spirituality has all too often been used as a means of suppressing our feelings. When feelings are denied, they move underground and can control a placid external presentation. I am convinced that feelings need resolution which leads to an enlightened way of living. Is this what you meant when you said?:

__JMC__ quoted: It needs a full acceptance of the succession of events and reactions that we call past.

__JMC__, M.D.




Subj: Re: antagonistic/seductive dualism

Date: 96-02-24
From: (__LSL__)
 

Hi __JEK__ and __BCP__, I simply wanted to 'say' that I applaud the self-revealing nature of the conversation you have been having. I will jump in sometime, when I get the urge, but I am certainly out here receiving.

God's Love is here, with us, now. We only need to allow ourselves to be in it,

__LSL__

-----------------------

Subj: duality within

Date: 96-02-24
From: (__MTD__)
 

"There is something deeply feminine about seeing the self as part of a quantum process, about feeling in one's whole being that I and you overlap and are interwoven, both now and in the future. Selecting things out, seeing them as separate, naming them, and structuring them logically are male attributes. They follow... from the 'particle aspect' of our intelligence. Seeing the connections between things is more feminine. It mirrors the 'wave aspect' of the psyche."

Danah Zohar in "The Quantum Self" (cited in Nick Herbert's "Elemental Mind")

I recognize and celebrate the interplay of male and female energy in my psyche. Rather than a distinct duality, I think of these as figure and ground with fluid boundaries, shifting position as subtly as day becomes night....

-----------------------

Subj: Oneness/Separation


Date: 96-02-24
From: (__JNP__)

__JAB__ wrote:
(As I write this, i am reminded of TS Eliot's lines about ending up where we started but knowing the place for the first time.) And those two things *are* different - if you come to unity with a knowledge of duality, it's not the same as never knowing. So the Garden of Eden is like the womb, you have no awareness of yourself as separate from your mother (which is your universe), you have bliss without knowing you have bliss, and there is no time. It is necessary to be expelled from the Garden or there would never be any change.
Have I just taken myself to a position of saying that the struggle with duality that each of us makes is a part of the *evolution* of the spiritual essence of the Whole?

Looks that way. (-: We seem to journey from oneness to twoness to manyness to oneness. I can see why the existentialists think this is ridiculously absurd.

__JNP__



Subj: Re: Truncated appendages...

Date: 96-02-25
From: (__JAB__)

On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, __Dr. SCT__. wrote: [in response to the discussion about lopping off offending parts of oneself]

__Dr. SCT__ quoted: ...SNIP...SNIP...SNIP... chronic pain clinics, which have abysmal "success" rates if one measures success in light of resuming a full range of activities, and doing so comfortably}. The alternative which is also commonly offered is 'lopping off' the offending organ[s].

Either approach is in fact a version of 'cutting off'; in the first instance, the awareness of self which extends to activities which are too painful to pursue, and in the latter case, the literal appendage... an option which

__JAB__: I was intrigued by the idea that you are given the choice of cutting off physical parts of self, or cutting off activities (and accompanying hopes, dreams, self concept - I guess that goes for the choice of physical lopping as well) that are part of self.

__Dr. SCT__ quoted: My recent analysis of patient autonomy indicates that the option, endorsed by many traditional physicians, not to allow effective medication is in fact a decision to control patients' lives. {Health Care Analysis: Journal of Health Philosophy, November 1995, pp. 345-352}

__JAB__: I haven't worked with pain mgmt to any extent. But I do know that with *dying patients*!! physicians and nurses want to limit their pain meds, because they might get addicted!! This society continues to baffle me -we are so puritanical and act out so much. I think this is where Jung's concept of the Shadow - seen on a societal, rather than individual, basis, makes a lot of sense: What is forbidden (banished to Shadow) will be acted out in harmful ways. So we can't have reasonable pain medication, but we have enormous number of people destroyed by drug addiction.

__Dr. SCT__ quoted: So in a strange circle, I get back to the idea of "discussion between" pain and pleasure, between dimensions of the self. That discussion can only happen if the Self 's own voice is facilitated by minimizing pain - not by denying it, but by having the opportunity to determine a comfort zone that enhances self-expression!

__JAB__: Again, appreciating what __Dr. SCT__ is saying about pain management, and taking it to a related area I am more familiar with: With regard to assisted suicide, and right-to-die issues for terminally ill people, there are some concerns which I think are particularly legitimate, and one of them is this - - Often the wish to die is actually a wish to escape from unbearable ongoing pain. So the wish to die is just another version of our "lopping off" - except that the entire physical self is what's lopped. I am far from an authority on medication for pain, but I have read that in England hospices there is an effective pain reliever that maintains more awareness (minimizes mental fogginess) while providing more relief. That is, I think, called the Brompton Cocktail, and it's been around for years. And I have also read that there are new, effective pain relievers that have been developed, but they also are not used in the US. I do believe that people have a right to decide they want to die, but I also believe that if pain is the major determinant of their decision then we should have provided all possible pain relief. How (using __Dr. SCT__'s idea here, in my question) can we assume that their truest Self is taking part n the decision-making if the pain is drowning out its voice?

        __JAB__

-----------------------

Subj: Re: cutting off your hand


Date: 96-02-25
From: (__JAB__)

(note: sorry I seem to be writing such long msgs lately, but I am
"thinking out loud" and working out ideas for myself as I write)

__JNP__ had written [snipped] . . . There does seem to be a part of us that is able to distinguish between "I want" and "I should." So, metaphorically, if a part of us that is saying "I want" is keeping us from doing what "I should," then pluck that sucker out.

and __JEK__ answered [snipped] This sounds like a discription of the conflict betweeen the child, the unrecognized soul within us crying for recognition, and the super ego, the internalized parent who thinks it knows what's best for us.

__JAB__: Yes, I would be very suspicious of that "should" part. It's likely to tell you that you "should" work in a job you hate, because it makes more money for the future. But the "want" part may have you eating hot fudge sundaes at every meal, which might not work out so well in the long run either. :-)

**TRANSACTIONAL ANALYSIS**
There are several formulations of this idea of parts of the self which I like. One is Transactional Analysis's breakdown, which actually is based on Freud and therefore fits in with __JEK__'s detection of the superego in the "shoulds." TA was extremely popular a while back, so all of us who are at the "right age" are probably familiar with it, but younger ones may never have heard of it at all. The idea is that your characteristics can be sorted into 3 main sub-selves (those also have some subdivisions of their own). One is Parent; that's the superego, the shoulds, as well as being the part that wants to nurture. One is the Child; that includes all the emotional range you were born with, and your intuition and curiosity, as well as what you figured out about how to get along with or get around authority. The third is the Adult, which is logical/rational and sort of computer-like, or like Sgt Friday ("just the facts, m'am").

The formulation of "ideal functioning," based on TA, that I like is that it's the Natural Child (not the one that learned to wheedle adults, but the part including the basic emotions) whose wishes need to be the real wellspring, while the Parent and Adult help adjust those wishes to concrete realities.

So, in a very simplified example: the Child wants and needs love and affection. The Adult part helps him/her notice that there are some people who just are not able to provide it. The Parent (which can include some non-healthy rules) includes healthy rules like Do Not Go Home With Men You Pick Up In Bars, and these help the Child needs get met.

__JNP__'s example, in contrast, shows the Parent in charge, telling the Child to shut up.

**SHAKTI GAWAIN AND CREATIVE VISUALIZATION**
A different formulation of the parts of the self that *I* like is the one that Shakti Gawain gives. Please do *not* get hung up on the use of the words "feminine" and "masculine," because they are used only as efficient shorthand to refer to "those parts of the personality which have traditionally and generally been thought of in Western society to be more associated with this gender." So the "feminine" part of your Self includes your emotional and spiritual side; the "masculine" part is active in the world and logic-based. Gawain says that the ideal balance is that your "masculine" characteristics are in the *service* of your "feminine" qualities.

**DEAD POETS SOCIETY**
That idea (of Gawain's) is virtually identical to what the teacher in Dead Poet's Society (teacher played by Robin Williams) says. He tells the boys in his class that there is nothing wrong with being a doctor or lawyer - that those provide the practical concrete financial support for the *real* work of life, which is poetry (meaning spirituality, meaning, emotion).

So these all seem to agree that what you would lop off, if anything, would be whatever does not speak to the Child, to your emotional core, to "poetry."

        __JAB__

-----------------------

Subj: Re: cutting off your hand

Date: 96-02-25
From: (__JAB__)

__SHR__-, as I am wending my way through the week's messages (which I only have time to skim, deleting the boring ones, and then on the weekend I can come back again to the "good ones") I find that you have given another example, here, of what I was talking about - that the "Child," **not** the "Adult," is closer to the true Self.

__SHR__ quoted: like: "Duality comes in two Aspects in 3-D Life. There is Devided-Duality, which we all know about. The Mind hangs out thinking it Knows Best, and Logical Reason can power the Will. Mind is always trying to squelch the Emotions of Heart and Reason Intuition away. Mind tries to run the Show, which was never its job....SNIP...SNIP...SNIP... Mind, you stick with what you do best, logic and reason. There is a great call for that in the day to day Life. Mind, follow Heart's lead.....



Subj: Re: neuromuscular re-education

Date: 96-02-28
From: __JEK__

__BCP__,
You may use the bodywork ideas if you would like. I see myself as a cut and paste kind of person anyway.

__JEK__



Subj: Re: Intigrating our Shadow Self

Date: 96-02-28
From: (__JEK__)

In a message dated 96-02-25, you write:

__SHR__ said:
One fellow was having a particularly difficult time with his Attachment, including "shadow-boxing" and yelling in the store.
    I banished ...SNIP...SNIP..SNIP...SNIP... I realize that I have broadened the scope of "Shadow" here. But, we are not Alone in our Thoughts. There ARE Others who Hear/Know them! "We attract that which we Fear" (or Deny) When we tune into the violence of

Then __JAB__ said:
I think this is like saying that the archetypal polarities have an existence of their own. This is where duality could be seen as a *positive* thing, in that seeing ourselves as separate (having some sense of what our own little ego-place in the world encompasses) so that we don't merge with those energies. I need to acknowledge what's in my own shadow, but not be taken over by the universal unconscious.

__JEK__: I am reminded that someone told me once there are two types of 'crazies' in India. The psychotics who live in their own created and projected reality, (or who may be possesed by the energies you refer to), and the seers, who are differentiated from the rest. They are recognized as being unable to cope with the 'consensus reality' because they see beyond the veil of what we collectively have agreed upon to call reality. When someone wants access to a deeper reality, these are the people one seeks out.

__JEK__



Subj: Re: no apologies necessary

Date: 96-02-28
From: (__JEK__)
 

__BCP__ and __NCI__,

Yes, yes

The peotry of Rumi speaks to more hearts and understanding than all the eurdite teatises of forgotten scholars.

__JEK__



Subj: Re: consciousness

Date: 96-02-28
From: (__JEK__)

Dear __JMC__,

I agree with part one of your response:

__JMC__ quoted: Love is one, but the expressions of love are infinite.

__JEK__: In part 2 we again run into the discussion of whether this 'illusory' play field we encounter in our mental observations of a subject, object and a field is something that needs to be overcome in order to 'realize' our divinity, or whether the purpose of the play might not be to play out the diversity of the divinity.

__JMC__ quoted: These reactions are called involvement.

__JEK__: To the extent that these reactions are based on a sense of personal safety within the play of life, I would agree. To the extent these 'reactions' (not the right word in this situation - they are more engagements) are connected to that greater field, they are merely the swirl of the divine playing with the divine.

__JMC__ quoted: When a mind-creation is recognized as unreal, a mirage, the reaction vanishes.

__JEK__: So then, are there no engagements within the illusion that are 'real'? If this is so then monastic life would be the only practical solution.

__JMC__ quoted: What remains is what we are.

__JEK__: The only dilemma is "Who are We?"

__JMC__ quoted: We are not a reaction, but the background in which the reaction occurs. This background is not an object. We cannot perceive it. We are it. And we cannot see what we are.

__JEK__: From the perspective of the big picture, we can realize we are made of the water in which the iceberg floats (to continue a good metaphor currently drifting through ugh - couldn't resist) this is absolutely real and true. One can hardly argue with the perspective of unity and totality. This is the One.

I also sense a Three in One, if the spiritual traditions will support me. On the mundane level, I sense a level of engagement that is not personally reactive. My personal work is beginning to reframe my feeling so I am able to participate with what I sense as *my* particualar involement with the play (I use this *my* in realtion to my soul, a Divine exploration of a unique perspective of Itself - oops, soory if that get's just too abstract) This 'me' (when it is 'clear' - in the Scientology sense) has no need of protection. I, in my full sense, only seek creative involvement. The fear, the habits of my heart and mind are my teachers. They offer access to higher states of awareness operating within me, my soul's intentions, when the fallacy of their protective agendas is exposed. They are only hiddening my spiritual intentions. What has driven my personal history becomes transmuted into the mystery and myth of the 'fact' that I am here, in this experience, with my divine playmates, exploring those issues from a deeper level. Nothing is lost.

This leaves the full range and diversity of emotional, physical and mental engagement open to me, while not at all negating the spirituality of the experience. There is a non-attachment to the outcome. " We are it. And we cannot see what we are", we can be what we are.

I agree with your exploration of anger. I would only add as reinforcement:

In such a perspective, a life-time would only be the necessary moment for a vibratory attuning, until that there is nothing more to be attuned

and we can play with the attunement. As many become free, the play will continue to unfold.

At this moment, the ego-personality becomes transparent and does not hinder anymore the radiance of the Self.

A very pleasing discussion. I hope you are enjoying it too.

__JEK__



Subj: Re: confetti

Date: 96-02-28
From: (__JEK__)

Dear __ELZ__

Mr. Gold is alive and well, the last that I heard, in the foothills of the Sierras in California. He is somewhat of a madman mystic, artist and teacher. My sense of his style is that he is somewhat Gurdjieffian, though I only presume this from having read some of his work. I enjoyed his mischievous poking at out asleepness. I'm sure you could find or order his books from a metaphysical book store, or perhaps even find them in the library. The reference I made:

__ELZ__: A man named E.J.Gold has stated that the spiritual side of us has only three qualities. They are presence, attention (both the focus of meditation) and adoration. Adoration is of the heart, presence of the body or being, and attention of the mind.

__JEK__: is a synopsis of his ideas, I believe from "The Human Biological Machine as a Transformational Apparatus." I added in the references to the centers of awareness in the body. I'm affraid I tend to condense ideas from important teachers in my life, and wait for the next connection

Thanks for confirmation that it's all right to throw my confetti.

__JEK__



Subj: Re: consciousness

Date: 96-02-28
From: (__BCP__)

In a message dated 96-02-28, you write:

__JEK__ quoted:
A very pleasing discussion.
I hope you are enjoying it too.
__JEK__

__BCP__: More, more, we want an Encore, you guys!
:-)

-__BCP__



Subj: Re: confetti --- and CREDIT

Date: 96-02-28
From: (__BCP__)

In a message dated 96-02-28, you write:

__JEK__ quoted: I'm affraid I tend to condense ideas from important teachers in my life, and wait for the next connection

__BCP__: I happily plead guilty to that one too --
       Practicing Integration in all its many forms!
  But it kind of slow things down when I realize I may need to pass on some credit, since I never was much good at remembering names or playing trivia games, etc.
  Guess I shouldn't be surprized if/when that one comes back around :-| and the only good one of my life would be ascribed to someone else :-)
  But just think of how much more creative developments would actually take place if we weren't worried about where the credit goes. Would ruin a capitalistic society, break down structure, put lawyers out of business, take clay feet off of pedistals, make geniuses out of plain folk, and an ordinary information processing system out of government. Hmmm...

I think I was channeling Fred again; quite an anarchist...
I wouldn't say something like that...
<grin>

-__BCP__



Subj: Your messages

Date: 96-02-28
From: __JEK__

__BCP__,

I just deleted your first two messages to the list without reading them. OOOPS. Would you resend them to me personally so I can read them.

Sorry for the hassle.
Thanks

__JEK__



Subj: Re: consciousness

Date: 96-03-06
From: (__JEK__)

In a message dated 96-03-02, you write:

Dear __JMC__,

I find we dable with:

__JMC__ quoted: Love is one, but the expressions of love are infinite.

The only dilemma is "Who are We?" This question is the main one. By living the question without conceptualizing the answer, the answer reveals itself within the question.

__JEK__: I feel I delight in the infinite diversity of It's' exploration, I sense you reside in the peace of It's' whole-ness(t). It is punny. We complete each other. How peaceful.

__JMC__ quoted: The monastic life can be understood as a divine solitude, not directly related to an external monastic way of life. This quality of solitude is always present. Each feeling, thought and perception emerge at the heart of this silent presence.

All the best.

__JEK__: the best for All.

-----------------------

 




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